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klaretonor
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Posted 1 Year, 7 Months ago #1
A Message to all UK Paragliders
alfricagain
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Posted 1 Year, 7 Months ago #2
the sky isn't big in the UK, 57 million people on a small island, it can lead to friction, don't take rods e-mail to heart, he's a terrible winder upper.

I think Rob missed a possible solution to his problem re paragliders, we can fly whilst they're carrying 120 kg of aluminium, kevlar, carbon fibre, bits of steel, harnesses, reserves that never seem to save them, and we can continue to fly whilst they construct their flying machines, which seems to take at least two hours, we can keep flying whilst they have their cups of coffee and zip up thier ripped boiler suits, we can keep flying whilst they stand around and grump about paragliders, and then when they've missed the days best conditions and eventually top to bottom, we can keep flying. they virtually never come back up again cos it takes at least an hour to diasassemble their flying machines and then they have to get someone to drive it back up (mind you i once saw a bloke carry a fully rigged HG up hay bluff, about 1500 feet, what a nutter, he was a fit nutter though), and they don't come back up if they haven't broken one of those upright thingies that they seem to think are disposable.

toodle pip >:->
brian1905
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Posted 1 Year, 7 Months ago #3
I can't speak for the wild open spaces of the good old U.S of A but beleive me the sky is pretty bleedin' small when your mixing it with 20 odd Paragliders and another 10 to 15 hang gliders over Coombe Gibbet.

The 'Sky' is a large place but the bit of it thats going up tends to get a bit crowded at your average Hang Gliding site (oops sorry Hang/Paragliding Site).

Hang Gliders zip around the skies at anywhere between 15 and 40 odd mph, whlst paragliders dawdle along at more like 5 to 15 (though quite amusingly that speed is often negative). Consequently we have to give way to them at all times (I've NEVER seen a paraglider get out the way of a hang glider) so it is difficult not to get a little pee'd off at times.

And that in a nutshell is the paraglider vs hang glider problem.

I wont mention the lack of site discipline, poncy clothes etc etc.
Ducati999
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Posted 1 Year, 7 Months ago #4
I can't speak for the wild open spaces of the good old U.S of A but beleive me the sky is pretty bleedin' small when your mixing it with 20 odd Paragliders and another 10 to 15 hang gliders over Coombe Gibbet.

The 'Sky' is a large place but the bit of it thats going up tends to get a bit crowded at your average Hang Gliding site (oops sorry Hang/Paragliding Site).

Hang Gliders zip around the skies at anywhere between 15 and 40 odd mph, whlst paragliders dawdle along at more like 5 to 15 (though quite amusingly that speed is often negative). Consequently we have to give way to them at all times (I've NEVER seen a paraglider get out the way of a hang glider) so it is difficult not to get a little pee'd off at times.

And that in a nutshell is the paraglider vs hang glider problem.

I wont mention the lack of site discipline, poncy clothes etc etc.
donincardona
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Posted 1 Year, 7 Months ago #5
In a nutshell - in the UK - the situation is this:

It is MUCH easier to train and qualify to fly as a paraglider - about half the time it takes to train and qualify as a Hang Glider. And physically, it's much less taxing - you don't have to carry a heavy HG back up the training hill each time.

Flying schools make at least half their money (some say much more) from selling gliders and accessories to newly-qualified pilots. THEREFORE, they want as many qualified pilots as quickly as possible.

THEREFORE, many schools in the UK switched to training Paragliders instead of Hang Gliders some years ago.

Because of this, we now have MANY more Paragliders than Hang Gliders in the UK.

Another reason is that the public has been conditioned for many years to regard Hang Gliding as a dangerous occupation, peopled by crazies, whom the men in white coats haven't quite caught up with yet. This idea took root in the 70's and early 80's - well before the invention of Paragliding.

I talk to a lot of punters (the public) (in american= 'wuffos'?) on hillsides. They all say something like:

'Ah, I always wanted to have a go at that Hang Gliding, but the wife/girlfriend wouldn't let me, 'cos it's too dangerous - but I'm gonna have a go on one of them there parachutes'.

Note the word 'Parachute' - a 'safety' item - how can a 'parachute' be dangerous? They're there specifically to save your life, aren't they?

It therefore follows (in the public mind) that Paragliding, BECAUSE it uses 'parachutes', MUST be safer than Hang Gliding, which we all know, is only indulged in by suicidal loonies.

(The REAL figures, when I tell these members of the public, are that Paragliders are considerably more dangerous than Hang Gliders - they collapse into a bag of washing at the slightest provocation, and the hapless pilot plummets into the ground ('augers in'!) valiantly tugging on the control strings as he does so, in an attempt to restore the shape of the thing.)

However, BECAUSE the public percieve Hang Gliding to be dangerous, and Paragliding NOT to be, THIS reinforces the effect of more pupils entering Paragliding training than Hang Gliding training. The schools are delighted, and turn then out onto the hills in double-quick time, usually BEFORE they've had time to hang around and absorb some of the principles of air law, and the safety rules associated with flying on hillsides.

Hang Glider pilots, because their training is longer and more arduous, tend to arrive on the hill with a better grasp of these matters, and therefore tend NOT to fly (unknowingly) in a manner which annoys, inconveniences, and endangers other flyers on the hill.

I have to say also (and in all of this, of course, I generalise) that Hang Gliding, BECAUSE it is difficult to learn, attracts the sort of person who is in it long-term (it's a common joke in PG circles to comment unfavourably on the age and number of children of HG pilots!).

Paragliding, from an HG perspective, seems to attract a much more transitory type of person - possibly BECAUSE it can be picked up quickly - and we tend to see in PG pilots a larger number of the type of person who is:

Rock-climbing last year.... Paragliding this year.... Pot-holing (Caving) next year.....

These people tend (I emphasise TEND) to not care about site rules, or whether their behaviour upsets the landowner or not - after all, they're just passing through, and if the site doesn't open next year - well, it's no problem, they're off doing something else.....

They are also notoriously unaware of how their flying (because they have such limited experience) can cause danger or invonvenience to Hang Glider pilots. They're fully occupied just controlling the paraglider, with no attention to spare on accident-avoidance, or plain old-fashioned courtesy..)

A typical thing is, because of the slower speed of flight of a paraglider, is for the pilot to just 'hover' stationary in the lift band in front of the takeoff area, thus blocking other HG pilots from taking off. Thus happens because the forward speed of the paraglider is just cancelled out by the wind blowing onto the hill - the net groundspeed is zero, and the PG just 'hovers' over one spot.

This forces HG pilots to fly out of the lifting air in order to go round him (they cannot fly as slowly), and they risk losing the lift, and going down to the bottom of the hill, thus terminating their days sport, or at least losing an hour and a half, in order to derig, pack up, climb back up the hill, and re-rig the glider.

Therefore, you'll understand that inexperienced PG's are the bane of many HG's lives - they lose us flying sites, by thoughtless actions and attitudes, and they seriously inconvenience our flying, and in the worst cases, cause death and injury.

And - beause of the factors I outlined above - in the UK, they outnumber HG's by 2-to-1. You can't get away from them. The buggers are EVERYWHERE! In Europe, it's probably 4 or 5 to one. (What, you thought England was part of Europe, you Gringo? Don't be so silly! We're not the same as them foreigners over the Channel.....!)

You probably don't have these problems to anything like the same extent in the US, because you're considerably behind the rest of the world in your PG-HG ratio, but it will come, it will come.....

Many UK Paragliders (and let me say here that I know many PG pilots here that are just a good and considerate as HG's - and probably a damn site better pilots than me, for a start - we are generalising here from a HG pilot's perspective) comment on the fact that they never see hardly any HG pilots out on the hill.

That's because the HG pilots tend to only come out on days when the wind is too strong for PG's to fly, and so they'll have the hills to themselves on that day!

What has therefore evolved is a situation where HG's and PG's are separated temporally, by windspeed. However, there is a certain overlap of conditions, where BOTH can fly, and this is in the lighter end of the HG windspeed scale, where staying up is difficult. It then becomes particuarly annoying, on those days, for an HG pilot to be faced with a hillful of hovering PG's, hogging the liftband, and making him fly out, and round, them, thus risking falling out of the sky to an ignominious 'bottom landing'.

These above, are not my personal attitudes (except when it happens to me!), but are an oldtime HG pilot's attempt to explain to a newcomer the history behind, and reasons for, current attitudes in the two sports.

Once again, I say: It's not that PG pilots are, by type, uncaring or callous, it because MOST OF 'EM HAVE MUCH LESS EXPERIENCE, AND AREN'T INTENDING TO STAY IN THE SPORT. Once they gain a certain amount of experience, and airtime, then we usually coexist quite happily.

One other factor that seems, by common consent, to be a truism here, is that Paragliders tend to be financially better-off than Hang Gliders. Hang Gliders comment with incredulity on just how many of Paragliders have JOBS, Gawd - even CAREERS!

They are renowned for buying the latest gear all the time (the Ski-ing disease), and having flying suits in fluorescent colours that'd give a rhinoceros a migraine at 50 paces.

Paragliders comment with incredulity on how Hang Gliders are incredibly scruffy, and never seem to do anything for a living. (It's notorious that many more HG's seem to be out on the hill on weekdays, with hardly any PG's around, but on weekends, PG's grossly outnumber HG's!)

HG's also seem to fly with the same harness and equipment for 10 years or so (a jailable offence in PG eyes), and never clean any of it!

A notable PG commented recently that it seemed to him that all HG pilots were either part-time house builders (so they could knock off work and vanish if it got flyable, presumably), or had something to do with computers (probably stolen ones).

PG pilots cars are typically middle-management motors, with no sign of rust whatsoever. (Remember, those of you in the US, that in England, its almost impossible to be more than 60-70 miles from the sea - things rust a lot more!)

Hang Glider's cars seem to be often vans, utilities, or ancient 4-wheel- drives, or beatup saloons older than your grandma's birth certificate!

I think it's a truism that Hang Gliding is a much bigger part of Hang Glider pilots lives than Paragliding is of PG's lives - in general. HG's sacrifice career and money to spend time doing what they love - flying.

PG's have careers, and jobs, and fit flying in somewhere - which is why they don't stay in it so long. Because they're not so committed, they get less upset than HG's about problems such as site congestion, etc.

I'd be interested to know from US readers if the same, or similar observations apply over there.
Linda2
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Posted 1 Year, 7 Months ago #6
If he carried a HG up Hay Bluff, he's probably a DEAD nutter - I would
Calius
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Posted 1 Year, 7 Months ago #7
Dave,

Maybe there's a PG vs. HG problem in Los Angeles, (meaning Sylmar, though I don't of problems there) but out at Crestline / Marshall in San Bernardino the two groups coexist quite well. Sure, there's good natured banter and there are a few guys who have to be anti-something or they just aren't happy, but the majority get along quite well. Many of the pilots are biwingual, so that helps. Also the fact that there's a lot of room helps.

Have fun learning to fly, Ken Howells
swift tuttle
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Posted 1 Year, 7 Months ago #8
Thanks Rod for the great info about PG vs. HG !

I live in a very flat part of the US (Michigan), so I must fly motorized pg in order to get into the air. I have to travel two hours in the car to find a flying buddy, even though I live in a suburb of Detroit (4 million population - metro area). I did fly with an instructor just outside of San Diego, the hg folks and pg folks got along very well. It seemed that each was interested in the other's craft so it was very amenable. My instructor (Alan Chucalate) flies out of Torrey Pines, CA. He seemed to complain more about the radio controlled gliders than anything else ! Apparently, he has been hit by these 'buggars' on three seperate occasions (one time while flying a student tandem)!

As a side question: My wife is from the UK and we travel back every other year. What are my British legal requirements to fly my pg while visiting the Midlands ?

Rod wrote :
paultrr
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Posted 1 Year, 7 Months ago #9
Correction Mr Buck - you'd be a slimmer nutter... Rod Duggan
cihoovcvb
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Posted 1 Year, 7 Months ago #10
(snip) All good sense, as usual, Peter. I reckon you soft southies have had much more aviation weather than us oop norht this year.
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