So whats the real deal on PG collapses?

I've been reading replies to my two earlier posts, and I've now looked at the archived newsgroup discussions comparing hang-gliders to paragliders. (Thanks to the person who gave me the right keywords for that search.) So far I'm finding a VERY large discrepancy in the reports about PG collapses.

One HG pilot told me that a friend of his, an award-winning aerobatic HG pilot, was flying a beginner PG, on a beginner hill, in moderate conditions, and had a collapse that put him in a wheelchair for the rest of his life. A PG pilot reported that he sometimes gets 3 collapses in 3 minutes. He said he almost always gets multiple collapses on every flight.

But I've also heard from an instructor with over 600 flights who claims that he's only had a few 'asymmetrics' in his 2+ years of flying. He says they only 'changed his direction'. Another PG pilot says he's only had about three minor 'tucks' in over three YEARS of flying paragliders.

I have to believe that these reports are the extremes, but before I can decide if this sport has an acceptable level of risk for me I'd like to get more feedback from other PG pilots. If I fly a DHV 1 or DHV 1-2 glider in mild conditions will I get many collapses?

Thanks. I appreciate all the advice and suggestions I have been receiving.

Robert, neither one of these types of flying will not have an 'acceptable' level of risk for you. Sorry, Jim E.

The answer to the above paragraph is, probably not. However, please note the many instances of 'Clear Air Turbulence' that have been reported for airplanes: you WILL get a collapse at some time. The best advice is to do everything you can to avoid taking a collapse while flying near the ground - altitude allows you the time to take care of this.

Indeed, most training for flying PGs is about recovering from asymmetric folds/tucks, or other mid-air deflations. Everyone takes deflations. I've only had three or four (in about 150 flights, on a DHV 2 wing) that were serious and took a lot of effort on my part; however, I've probably taken a couple hundred or more 'tip rolls', 'whacks' and such that took little or no action on my part.

As I recall from your previous posts, you are in the Seattle area. The Northwest Paragliding Club's meetings are the 2nd Tuesday (Oct 10 this month) at Pogacha Restaurant in Issaquah at 7pm. Usually most of the local instructors are there. Come by and talk to us.

For my two cents worth, you'll never have these problems with a hang glider. People may point out the structural failure possibilities which may be encountered with a hang glider. I've been flying Hang Gliders since 1992, a couple old ragged ones too, and never had a structural failure in air. I've never had occasion to use my emergency parachute either, but I've always had it. Do PG'ers have them? Al Mills

There isn't that much contradiction. Collapses are are almost entirely avoidable by using your brain about when and where to fly. I did 550 flights over 8 years and only had 2 noticable but minor collapses. They caused no turning, and recovered when I eased my brakes about 3 inches toward the neutral position.

But I was very cautious, and spent a terrible amount of time parawaiting while the majority of adrenaline junkies went out, asked for trouble, and got it. Have you observed the sports yet? Except for big thermal sites, the scariest parts aren't normally in the air, but at launch for PG and at landing for HG (I was constantly black and blue during my short HG period).

The glider rating is important, but pilot judgement of the conditions is more important. I've owned 2 unrateable competition gliders with no problem or collapses. I flew the notorious Owens Valley during 91 PG nationals (as noncompetitor) with no problem.

Bottom line is the sports can be almost as safe as you make it. Don't take other pilots as role model, there are a lot of loonies and even unsafe instructors (I've known a few that died). It's between you and nature, your ability to read conditions and physics. Also depends on your local sites; many have unsafe launch topography for PG's or unsafe landing for HG.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

I don't believe that's true. I know that paragliding and hang-gliding are very dangerous sports. I'm aware that I could be seriously hurt or killed on any flight, I'm just trying to figure out how much control I have over my own destiny. Many of the PG accidents and fatalities I've read about happened because of situations that I have some degree of control over:

- The pilot launched in dangerous conditions - The pilot didn't attach his harness correctly - The pilot was flying a DHV 2 or DHV 3 wing - The pilot was trying to fly too close to the tree tops or hill - The pilot had a dead radio and couldn't hear the 'turbulent' LZ report - The pilot was unfamiliar with the area and flew into bad air

I'm trying to ascertain my chances of being seriously hurt if I avoid the scenarios above. My desire to fly is incredibly strong, a lifelong dream even, so I'm willing to accept the risks inherent to this sport, I just want to make sure that my odds of survival are a bit better than 'Russian Roulette'.

Jupp, we have

-Morgan Toervolt-

Hi again.

I have told you all I know about this before, almost. You see, yesterday I flew 2 hours and 20 minutes, with a wing that i am very light in ( the wing is for 100-170 kg, while I only weigh 95). If you are light in the wing, you also have less presure in the wing, and then, also more probable that the wing will get a collapse. The weather conditions where all right, with 4-5 m/s wind, and small hard autumn thermals (is that spelled right?). Anyways, we had along flight, and the wing i flew was a quite new Swing Arcus, which is a DHV 1 wing. I had a great time with the wing. A am not the one to fly calmly above the tree tops. I had one collapse, and i had it becase of a very hard wingover with too little speed. I did not quite finish it, so my lines where without strain on the inner part of the wing ( inner part in the wingover i took, i turned left, so therefore the left part ), and when the lines become loose, and without strain, the wing will deflate and collapse. My entire half wing just stopped flying. I did change direction about 50-70 degees, but then it reinflated, I got the wing presure back, and I started at it again. I really worked hard to see how the wing reacted. I needed to, because i am bying a new wing, and i want the handeling and control, and safety that i need. ( i had an emergency parashute, just in case I was nowhere near the limit og the wing, and I dont think I ever will manage to get past it. I did very hard spirals, wingovers and other stuff that i do not kow the name of . I am not bying the wing though. I am to light in it, and it had too little speed with me in it.

A collapse is never a problem if you keep you safety margins. A collapse will loose you some height (usually), an might change your direction a bit ( a small collapse can be held in a straight line if you steer ). In all the statistics I have seen (that is somewhat thrustworthy, like insurance statistics and so on ) paragliding goes as the safer sport.

Actually, i don't think it is the sport that is dangerous. It is the pilot. The difference is not in the equipment, but in the head. Paragliders do fly slowly, and hangliders don't. You want more adrenaline and speed ( like in mph, not the drug , choose hangglider, comfort and ease, choose paraglider. They are both safe if you do it right.

( i appologize the typos, a am Norwegian )

-Morgan Toervolt-

I've done about 20 hours in my first year on a DHV 1-2 (Ozone Electron).

Most of my flying has been done in the UK.

In that time i have had a couple of small tip deflations which weren't at all worrying and 1 small asym (30%?) which didn't cause much yaw at all and quickly popped back out itself. None of these happened in what I would call 'mild conditions' but the UK definition may be different to warmer places...

Interestingly had no collapses at all in France in strong conditions when my instructors flying DHV3 had lots.... active flying is the key.

But i'm still going to do an SIV course soon...

One of my friends, flying the same glider as me had a 50% collapse this summer but again reported a relatively smooth return to normal flyin

You can vastly improve your safety window by doing simple things...

* fly away from hill in turbulent conditions * always use a wind dummy! * practice recovery techniques * be prepared to walk down.. * talk to other pilots

Have fun

Brendan Brendan Reid Proven Wind Turbines www.provenenergy.com

Hi.

You have an excellent grasp of the situation: you can take steps to minimise your risk. Most pilots do this on a combination of factors before they fly: Reports from people in the air, weather forecasts, bite assesment, and a fair amount of 'gut feel'.

I now have sites that I refuse to fly at because I've had nothing but scares on them.

If you're flying a DHV 1-2 wing, you fly in moderate conditions, and you learn to fly actively, collapses should be infrequent. Minor wing-tip tucks are to be expected, but they tend to be an annoyance only: you only realise you've had one when you hear the rustle as it pops out... there's no change in the flying characteristics of the glider. Large collapses that alter your course should be very rare.

Floyd, can you recommend any good PG areas near Tiger Mountain? I only live about 10 minutes from there but from what I've read it's kind of unpredictable.

Also, how's the flying in Washington between now and Summer? (When it's NOT raining, of course.)